Wednesday, February 06, 2008

Eschatology Survey

I'd like to survey my readers (regular or drive-by) as to which view of eschatology you hold. Are you Pre-Millenial? Amillenial? Post-Millenial? Preterist? Partial Preterist? Other? Combination? If you are Pre-Mil, are you dispensational (rapture, 7 year tribulation, 1000 year earthly reign) or historical (no tribulation, but Christ returns for 1000 year earthly reign)? I'd like to know. Thanks!


  1. I don't know what these terms mean, but I hope that Jesus will return at the end of time, billions or trillions of years from now, at which point the dead will be resurrected. Meanwhile, the kingdom of God may well be achieved or approached by humans or their successor species before that time. What does that make me?

  2. VF, If I had to invent a term, it might be Darwinian hyper-postmillenialism! Take that one to church with you. It might be fun.

  3. The things in the Nicene Creed are obligatory: the return of Christ, the judgment of the living and the dead, the resurrection, and his everlasting reign.

    But if I ventured a guess on those other topics: tribulation--a combination of the historic view with a premillenial view. RE Rapture, just don't buy it--I mean it's based on ONE verse in the whole Bible. I do think Christ will reign in a personal and bodily form eventually.

  4. Up to a few years ago I would have answerd without hesitation that I was a Reformed amillenialist. But along the way I did an intense study of the book of Revelation using a Greek/English interliner New Testament.

    As I was doing that sudy I felt like I was being grabbed by the scruff of the neck and being dragged kicking, screaming and protesting back to a basic pre-milinneal position and so I am. I beleive the Bible teaches there will be a great tribulation at the end of this age, but remain "reverently agnostic" regarding the timing of the rapture.

    I don't pretend that the pre-mill view is not without its problems and issues, but would assert the amill view has as many or more problems and issues. I take exception to amill appraoch to the Book of Revelation, but that is another post in and of itself. As it is I hold my currant view with a loose hand. The nature of prophacy and eschatology in my mind, demand that of all of us.

    And of course it is off the essence of Christian hope that makes all of us "Pan-milleniallists". With a soverigen God, it will all "pan out" in the end...


  5. I have been a pre millenialist most of my Christian life. You know. Rapture, AntiChrist, Tribulation, 7 years, Mark of the Beast and all that.

    Then Some of my friends began preaching Peterism. Using as a core text Days of Vengeance. It's a very attractive concept. Dominion theology and all. Very optimistic.

    I'm an optimist so I want to believe all that.

    But as I read the book, listen to preaching, although I like the concept, I'm afraid I'm not fully convinced that all we see in Matthew and Revelation happened by 72 AD.

    I think the truth is both and not either or. Yes, 72 AD took place. But it's a type and shadow of what will yet happen.

    There is too much happening outside in the world to assume Revelation is simply historical.

    Our mutual friends, Ron McKenzie is Preterist. He has helped me. Our other mutual friend John Armstrong in his Kitchen a few weeks ago sat with me and went over the whole thing.

    I want to believe but I'm struggling to buy the whole idea.

    There is too much in Revelation that speaks to where I am today not to be relevant.

    On the other hand, the one part of Days of Vengeance I do buy into is this, Revelation should be read aloud in worship services as a form of Worship. One of the Fellowships I work with does exactly that. It always brings a joy and a picture of Jesus in victory. So, even if all the book was ever written for was to be used in worship it is worth studying.

    On the other hand, I look at Isaiah CH 13 and think of historical Iraq for the last 3000 years and ask, how many times will that prophecy be fulfilled. At least 3 and maybe 4 soon.

    Why should the Book of Revelation or even Ezekiel 38 be any less.

    Good question. One I am wrestling with right now. You caught me at a funny time in life.

  6. I think Jesus will come back to earth and settle this madness down - I base this on Matthew mainly and the idea the disciples seemed to think he would physically come back as he left. I think the rapture is fake.

    However I do think there will be an end-times scenario where humanity is on the verge of wiping itself clean off this planet - maybe Jesus comes then to 'save us' - since we would need it - pride being pride and all? I am not sure about a 1000 year reign and all that other stuff - we pull that from Revelations and I have no clue how that book should read.

    Basically I am this: There will be a time when the earth is in so much turmoil Jesus needs to come back to stop it. From thence on I really have little to no clue - I really need to study me some Revelations and see what in that book is literal and what it is supposed to mean.

  7. Christian Eschatologist2/6/08, 8:37 PM

    My eschatology is based upon the New Testament and Bible and it is pre-tribulational rapture before the millennial reign and rule of the Messiah, Yeshua for 1000 years after the Tribulation and Great Tribulation on this planet and forever reigning and ruling on a new created heaven and new created earth.

    My book, Alienated Planet Earth and the End that will be Coming to Our World published May 2005 by Trafford Publishing is available on-line:
    would be helpful to any contemporary person by assisting them to form authoritative sources Christ's gospels and Paul's epistles from the New Testament to form a correct Christian eschatology.

    "Societyvs" might I refer you to what the Messiah Jesus (Hebrew: Yeshua) said in his gospels of Matthew and Luke seeing as you so summarily disregarded the rapture as His own prophecy. Check out Matthew, Chapter 24 verses 40 & 41 and Luke, Chapter 17 verses 34, 35 &36 which contain His own prophecies of the rapture from the inception of Christianity.

    The mystery of the pre-tribulation rapture can also be found described and expounded upon in the first epistles of His Apostle Paul to the early Corinthian and Thessalonian churches. Read Corinthians, Chapter 15 verses 51 through 57 and Thessalonians, Chapter 4, verses 13 though 18.

    In Yeshua's Name,

    Jonah Immanu,
    Christian Eschotological Author

  8. amill, post trib

    Not a spiritualizer like some amiller's.

    I am of the opinion that all the eschatological forms fail at one point or the other.

    Where you begin determines where you finish. I read from Genesis to Rev. Some people read from Rev. to Genesis. This affects the conclusions we come to.

    What made me amill was coming to the belief that there is one final judgment.


  9. Thanks to all who have responded to my eschatological survey so far. For those who have a comment reponse feed, I have posted a followup post located here:

  10. "which contain His own prophecies of the rapture from the inception of Christianity." (CE)

    Way I see it those verses can mean a few things and why would Jesus just not come out and say the rapture in the first place? Maybe the symbolism of the passages means something else than just a rapture? Far as I can tell your reading an idea from later on back into Matthew and Luke - and those verses could as easily be explained as AD 72 and that event.

    Rapture seems fake to me - if it happens and I don't believe in it - big whoop - I am a Christian also so I am guessing I will be raptured also (whether I believe it or not). However, at this point - it seems very made up.

  11. If I say I am an "amillenialist" some would say, "WHAT? you don't believe in Rev. 20"? . Yes, I do believe that the word "thousand" is in the verbally inspired word of God, but I don't believe that it refers to a literal thousand years of 365 1/4 days a year. Like so many words and phrases in Revelation, I believe it is symbolical also,, that the 10x10x10 there refers to an indefinite long period of time, the New Testament era in which we are now living, since the resurrection of Jesus Christ. To make it literal is also to make 'key' literal' along with the 'great chain' . Since some combine many and sundry Bible passages with Revelation in 'last time' theology, and especially Matt. 24, I would like to make some comments about that particular chapter. I do not believe that the Lord Jesus gave His generation any "sign" about the End of this time, the consummation of all things. The disciples may have asked about it but the only signs he gave were in relation to their most urgent concern, and that was, "when will these things (Gk. tauta) be?", i.e., 'when will the temple be destroyed?' Christ went on to tell THEM the signs preceding the destruction of their pride and glory, the temple. When that generation was to see those signs, they should flee, not behind the walls of Jerusalem nor in the safety of the temple, but to take to the hills, so to speak. In the intervening years, between Jesus resurrection and the destruction of Jerusalem, the signs in fact did take place:1. Many false "Christs" came and deceived many, there were numerous wars and rumors of wars (and concerning this, Jesus said, 'but don't be alarmed, for it is necessary for this to happen, but the END is not yet")2. The believers would be delivered into tribulation, some would be killed, they would be hated by theGentiles on account of His name.3. Many would be made to stumble, and would betray one another, and hate each other4. Many false prophet would rise up and deceive many5, There would be an increase of lawlessness, love of many waxing cold.6. the one who has persevered unto the END the same one will be saved (can mean:saved from physical harm)7. The Gospel would be proclaimed in all the inhabited earth for a testimony to the nations (ethnos), and then the END shall come. (note that the word, END, here and in v. 6, is the Greek word TELOS, not the Greek word,'sunteleia' of v. 3 in the question of the disciples ! Later Jesus will refer to that kind of end by using the term, 'that day', when 'heaven and earth pass away'). Scripture interprets Scripture in that the Gospel was brought to "nations" before 70 A.D. as you read Romans 1:8 (made known to all nations), Rom. 16:26 ( made known to all nations); Col. 1:6 (....the Gospel....has come to you, as indeed IN THE WHOLE WORLDCol. 1:23(...the Gospel...which has been preached to every creature under heaven). Jesus said that whenthe Gospel has gone to the Gentiles, then THE TELOS wll come. Note this: we do not stop preaching the Gospel when WE think that every ethnos has heard it (some ethnos-language groups have disappeared, and they may not have even had a Gospel preacher come to them. ....shame on us who didn't take it to them.) ...We are wrong to think that when we take the Gospel to every single language-ethnic group in the world, then this will bring about the return of Christ and the end of this age! Figuring out the 'signs' of Christ's return (for which I believe there are NONE) is not the motivation for our Gospel mission endeavor --- that is in the Great Commission-- Matt. 28, Mark. 16, Luke 24, Acts 1:8, etc. It is my contention that the "end" (TELOS, Gk.) in v. 6 and 14 refer not to the end of the World, but to the end of the TEMPLE and destruction of Jewish polity, sacrifices, etc.8. The defining "sign" for the believers to flee is in v. 15, 16 of Matt. 24. "When YOU (THAT generation, not WE who live in the 21st century!) SEE the abomination of desolation..... then...flee......" What is the "abominationof desolation"? Matthew and Mark alone have this phrase. But let Script. intepret Scripture! Luke explains what this was, in Luke 21:20. When that generation sees the armies encompassing the 'holy place' (Mt.24:15) taking their stand, encompassing the holy place (Jerusalem), then those in Judea should flee. History tells usthat Florus before 70 A.D. assumed control of Judea, inciting Jewish rebellion, and this brought in theRoman armies under Cestius Gallus, camping near the city. When this 'compassing' of the area took place, believers were to recall the words of Jesus to flee because the Jerusalem-desolation was near. But how would they escape if the area was surrounded? Josephus tells us that "without any reason in the world" Gallus with-drew his armies and departed! Then this was the opportunity for believers to flee. After Gallus left, Nero ordered Vespasian to take control, who in turn orders son Titus to bring the 5th and 10th legions from Egypt tosubdue Judea and Jerusalem. Titus headed the armies to Jerusalem, and after much "tribulation", such as the world has never seen, Jerusalem fell. Eusebius reports this escape of believers from Jerusalem in his writings The secular historian Will Durant also writes of this in his "The Story of Civilization.Vol.III". They escaped to Pella.. According to 'futurist' interpretation, one would have to conclude that Jesus began speaking, in answer tothe disciples' question, about a FUTURE temple! Verses 36-51 are words that relate to the Parousia,show-ing that no one will get a 'sign' before the Final End. THAT coming is uannanounced and sudden, unexpected,but sure to come ANYtime, like the coming of a 'thief'. Matt. 24:36 is the prime end time text for us Christians, and it teaches us to live in the words of Matt.6:33-34, and simply to "watch and pray", for "the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect Him"! So let us do His work while it is day, for night comes when no man can work.! ....Harold A. Hein ....

  12. Thank you, Harold, for the historical information.

  13. Contrary to what Gene said above, I am not a preterist. The scriptures that predicted AD 70 have been fulfilled. Those that apply to the future will be fulfilled when their time comes.